| CERN Experiment May Violate NEPA, Destroy Universe |
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| Written by Dave Loos | |
| Saturday, 29 March 2008 | |
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(Sept. 10 update: Scientists turned on the collider this morning. So far so good.) Sometime this summer, physicists are expected to make their first attempt at recreating the energies and conditions last seen a trillionth of a second after the Big Bang, using the $8 billion Large Hadron Collider, buried deep underground near Geneva at the European Center for Nuclear Research (CERN). This isn't your normal science experiment. The giant particle accelerator -- 14 years in the making -- has a circumference of 17 miles, which will allow researchers to smash atoms together at very high speeds. Scientists hope this will shed light on the origins of the universe. Others think the experiment will have the unfortunate side effect of destroying the universe. There's not much middle ground here, which makes the lawsuit filed last week in U.S. federal court so interesting. The suit, filed in Honolulu, seeks to stop the final phase of construction on the LHC. Walter L. Wagner and Luis Sanchon say CERN has not conducted a proper environmental impact statement as required under NEPA. Oh, and they also allege that the experiment could open up a black hole that instantly consumes the entire planet, and possibly much more. The U.S. Energy Department, the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory, the National Science Foundation and CERN as listed as defendants in the lawsuit, which reads, in part, "compression of the two atoms colliding together at nearly light speed will cause an irreversible implosion, forming a miniature version of a giant black hole." It's not just the possibility of black holes that concern the plaintiffs. MSNBC nicely recaps the other doomsday scenarios raised by Sancho and Wagner. They include:
The thousands of physicists working the project maintain that there is nothing to suggest the LNC is unsafe. CERN officials also wonder, as do we, how a district court in Hawaii has jurisdiction over an intergovernmental organization in Europe? In any event, CERN plans to hold a public open house on April 6 to discuss concerns about the project. We wish we could be there for the milk and cookies as scientists field questions on the end of existence. As for the lawsuit, the Justice Department, which is representing DOE, says a scheduling meeting has been scheduled for June 16, about six weeks before the before the first planned LHC experiment. Comments (158)
  written by Donald Omega, March 30, 2008
Wow false rumors kill science once again. The scientists working on the LHC have put together plausible explanations of what is expected to happen. Even if a black hole was created during the events caused by the LHC, it would be so small that it would dissipate almost instantly.
These people aren't dumb. They know what they're doing. This could be a major advance in science. Don't let human ignorance and prejudice belittle science once again. written by mike, March 31, 2008
never mind the fact that cosmic ray particles have been bombarding matter on Earth with at least as high energies as the LHC for BILLIONS OF YEARS the LHC is somehow going to kill us all. that's just fear mongering and you should be ashamed.
written by James, March 31, 2008
These physicists admit they don't really know what's going to happen.
written by rofl, March 31, 2008
james... do you know whats going to happen when u get out of bed tomorrow... no. not 100% for sure but you have a pretty good idea.
i believe the point needs no further explanation written by Deep Blue, March 31, 2008
From what I gathered, the scientist WANT to create the small black hole as explained by Donald, because then maybe some nice new particle may be explained.
And, people, HONESTLY, with the media and one guy on one side, and a whole team of dedicated scientists on the other, who do you believe? I know who I'd trust. And seperate from that is a philosophical argument whether or not anything is lost if we all get destroyed. I was gonna make that point but it's not relevant. It's not gonna happen. written by a guest, March 31, 2008
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,342854,00.html
Quote: Not included among the documents is Wagner's own indictment last month on identity-theft charges tied to an ongoing legal battle over a botanical garden on the Big Island of Hawaii, but you can read about that here. written by tellos, March 31, 2008
What is for sure is that I will prepare my camera... I leave quite close to geneva...1h30 ... do you think if I run.. I can keep up with a black hole???
written by Andrew, March 31, 2008
A cornerstone facet of physics is the principle of error and statistical uncertainty, and how to weigh and quantify this uncertainty.
As a case in point, this machine may show nothing. None of the things the researchers are looking for are likely events; the LHC performs so many billions of high energy collisions per second that the sensor data needs massive pre-filtering before it can even be analyzed. Colliders can perform trillions of collisions before ever seeing one event that is interesting. So in this way, noone is sure what will happen. That stranglet could be formed, and while it is extraordinarily unlikely, it is still possible, and thus that uncertainty comes in. Even if it IS unlikely, concern is valid and we should approach with caution. As a friend of mine said, "The physicists working on the Trinity Project were afraid the bomb might set the atmosphere on fire... fortunately we found out they were perfectly safe." written by Woss, March 31, 2008
Chernobyl physicists knew what they were doing too!
I doubt it will create blackhole to swallow us but i think more consideration for the environment should be made, and an impact study is easiest enough to complete if they have nothing to hide. Remember these guys are smashing particles together to see what comes out. They dont know exactly what will spill out and how dangerous it is. A very primitive futuristic experiment. written by AttemptingReason, March 31, 2008
Actually, Chernobyl was a disaster waiting to happen even by the safety standards of its time. It had no roof on its containment shelter, its reaction became faster when it got hotter (big no-no), it had very poorly designed control rods, and the technicians running it allegedly were not accurately and thoroughly informed of the intricacies of the system. There was every reason for a knowledgeable person to think that it was a crappy system.
Compare that to the LHC. It's basically just a bigger version of previous supercolliders, so there isn't anything potentially more dangerous about it than the type of particles it will produce. We know that the energies reached in the LHC will be far less than the highest energies reached in nature, even today (look up the "Oh My God" Particle) and that any novel particles produced by it will be excessively short lived, or they would have been observable in nature. The LHC won't be doing anything new to the earth, it will just be doing it where scientists can finally get a good look. written by Solar boy, March 31, 2008
If we annihilate this universe and create a new one then we are GOD! Cool!!
written by Actino, March 31, 2008
well another proof of the stupidity that americans tend to show off.
CERN is in Europe and it doesn't have to follow or care about NEPA!! This is so stupid. It's like Bin Laden makes a lawsuit against Bush in any islamic country. Imagine that he wins and Bush is sentenced to life in prison. What would happen? Nothing. Except publicity. That's what these people want. 15 minutes of fame.. written by Rash, March 31, 2008
Wow, that's not the same thing at all. First of all, I don't believe that laymen speculations regarding absurd scenarios should be taken into account when making up ones mind about this, so this piece of trash "article" should just be ignored. However comparing getting up out of bed, and smashing atoms together is really not the same thing at all.
It just shows your bewildering ignorance and retardation to even compare those two things. So your point is invalid, and yes, "your point needs further explanation". There are no similarities between the two, nor is there one single instance of sense in what you are saying. written by Ed Mays, March 31, 2008
Once God finds out about these jokers at CERN there is going to be hell to pay.
written by KD, March 31, 2008
This lawsuit is being filed against Physicists, by Physicists. Don't flatter the American rednecks by even thinking they have the competence to come up with a theory related to the world of particle dynamics. But of course, the nature of Physicists is that they're all out to make a name for themselves. If they have to pull a smelly publicity stunt to do it, they will.
written by michael, March 31, 2008
jeez, I can't believe I am giving a comment to this, even. If there were any real concern by the worlds scientific community, I would expect that something more than a lawsuit in honolulu would be heard. A black hole btw is not likely to form. Try to read up on black holes and what they actually are. It's just as likely as they will create a microscopic star that will burn upp the planet. If we did'nt research what we don't know about, we would still be afraid of fire.
written by Anonymous, March 31, 2008
"rofl" made a decent point, actually: Nothing is ever 100% certain. No matter how safe these scientists believe the experiment to be, there's no doubt that they are working with massive, potentially dangerous forces. With something this high-powered, there's always the potential for something going terribly wrong, and it needs to be decided whether that risk is worth the benefits of this experiment. Remember, just because you can achieve something, that doesn't mean you necessarily should.
written by Faces, March 31, 2008
Anonymous has a point, Rash. You simply overlooked the simplicity of rofl's explanation. As 'rofl' so clearly said, nothing is ever truly certain, which was the base of Anonymous' comparison.
written by This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it , March 31, 2008
redI SAY FIRE IT UP !! STOP BEING PUSSYS
written by Kelly, March 31, 2008
Stop with the American bashing, KD. It's overly simplistic, rude, ignorant, and completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
written by a guest, March 31, 2008
The 'N' in NEPA stands for National.. as in the 'Nation' of the United States of America.
Hey, America, Geneva is in Switzerland, not the USA, that means it is not within your national boundaries, that means... f*** off! written by Mandi, March 31, 2008
Yeah! I'm with you. I consider the size and strength of that machine against the size and strength of the earth/galaxy/universe. Nah, nothing to worry about. I say LET'S DO IT!
written by uboat, March 31, 2008
ok so all i have to add, is that fermilab a smaller collider that is in illinois has the physicist at cern worried they will discover these things first, yet no one is filing court cases against this lab, and it is in freaking america, this is just a dumb stunt, i mean if it wasnt safe and didnt have tons upon tons of resaearch done you really think it would be happening in america already? no.
written by Bar_Barian, March 31, 2008
I read a quote from one of the physicists at the end of a similar article. He did in fact say that "on a quantum level, anything is possible. This machine could conjure dragons that will gobble us up. It's just very very unlikely."
written by geoff, March 31, 2008
greenwhere exactly is the energy to destroy the world going to come from? The actual tunnel or the materials used? It is a self-limiting system at CERN. Please let us focus on real problems. A valid critique might be the energy used thats it.
written by Alec, March 31, 2008
Finally someone with some sense. Anyone with even undergraduate physics experience can tell you that any "small black holes" would exhaust themselves almost instantaneously. These concerns are brought forward by people -who aren't even in the field of physics.-
No, the scientists are not 100% sure of what kinds of conditions will be created in these scenarios, for the same reason that I can't prove my coffee mug won't suddenly implode upon itself. It's not very likely. written by Rage, March 31, 2008
"Don't let human ignorance and prejudice belittle science once again."
We can't keep creationists out of the damn school system and you expect people to be reasonable about a 17 mile tunnel designed to smash atoms? written by Ben, March 31, 2008
I'm American and can't wait to see the results out of the LHC. The same goes doubly for the many American scientists who will be conducting experiments there alongside their European and Asian fellows. Can we not take an incredible international collaboration and find a way to twist it to bash one country, please? Belief that all Americans are the same is as bigoted as any other stereotype, regardless of whether it's in vogue right now.
written by nooneyouknow, March 31, 2008
You foolish people! Read the complaint first before you start mouthing off.
This is a legal action to ensure compliance and a delaying action, not a scare tactic as some morons suggest. This suit seeks only a few primary objectives: a) A temporary restraining order be issued restraining defendants from operating the LHC or further preparing the LHC for operation for four months; b) A preliminary injunction enjoining defendants from operating the LHC until after they have completed either a FONSI or EIS, as appropriate, be issued and to last until such time that such FONSI or EIS has been reviewed by plaintiffs or the court and approved for operation; c) A permanent injunction be issued enjoining defendants from operating the LHC until such time that the LHC can be proven to be reasonably safe within industry standards" Nothing wrong with that, is there? written by nooneyouknow, March 31, 2008
Are you one of those guys that sound like, smell like and look like an ape?
You shouldn't be insulted since you believe that you are a descendant of one. If anything, the apes might be offended. There is absolutely no evidence that evolution is pure science. It isn't science, it is pure conjecture without any archaeological proof and without veracity. written by Silas, March 31, 2008
One fundamental question has not been asked here. I know it seems quite ridiculous and I'm sure I'll be told as much, and I will give everyone this "it certainly doesn't create much in the way of debate", but if the experiment proceeds and the end of existence is thrust upon us, who would you sue? Quite irrelevant I agree, and the experiment does require more discussion, but in the end, in the frame of the largest of all issues, there would not be anyone left to point a finger at or seek retribution upon. Myself, I say bring it on, if we learn we excel, if not, we parish and no one will ever know the difference.
written by al, March 31, 2008
and even if he were real, I thought he was supposed to be omnipotent and omniscient, so technically he should know about it and have done something about it already.
Or maybe he's talking to Santa, to make sure those naughty scientists dont get any xmas presents this year?! written by Anonymous, March 31, 2008
You mean other than the EPA having no juristiction over the LHC?
written by Anonymous, March 31, 2008
At a guess, its just america being sore that there is a chance of someone other than america destroying the world by accident.
After all, screwing up the environment, bringing us all to the brink of nuclear war - several times - demolishing faith in human rights processes, demolishing faith in justice, causing fear worldwide, creating an environment of hatred and bigotry around the world. Those are all the monopolies of the US, no europeans better try to be getting in on this 'destroying civilisation' gig! written by K, March 31, 2008
It's the equivalent of "I don't understand, so you probably better not do that".
written by JOJO, March 31, 2008
Hey last time I checked we had problems like global climate change, poverty, oppression, severe depletion of resources, species extinction etc. Unless this experiment is somehow going to solve this I suggest maybe pouring those resources into improving the problems we have. Hasn't science realized by now that the god of 'progress' has lead us to the brink of our own destruction. For people who are so smart they can be incredibly stupid and shortsighted. That's billions of dollars spent on a question that we never need to know to function happily and sustainably in the world. We need to save our God complexes for when we're not neck-deep in our own sh*t.
written by KD, March 31, 2008
I was referring to the redneck populace. Not America as a whole. In other words, don't give idiots more credit than they deserve since this lawsuit has been filed by physicists.
And no, I doubt our tiny little ray gun will have any impact on our time-space fabric. Besides, how would you know you've been sucked into an alternate Universe since your alternate self will already be acclimated to that reality? written by phil, April 01, 2008
The americans ARE apart of this thing. We were building a super colider in texas ( a few years into it) and stopped to help fund the one with CERN. IIRC there are 14 different countries who are involved with the program. Not all of us americans are like these people and making a statement such as yours is a really bad statement to make.
after saying that I have been looking foward to this for about 5 years now, IF one of us americans actually does stall this from starting, please think before you get angry at "americans" written by phil, April 01, 2008
The americans are apart of this project. I like to tell my government to fuck off as well, but please dont lump us all in with these kind of people
written by Martin, April 05, 2008
It's tough sharing the planet with so many cretins and luddites.
Religion needs to be banned by the way. written by graham, April 06, 2008
I am an expert at asking stupid questions, but I am correct in assuming the experiments are trying to recreate the start point of the universe, the starting point for gravity to being created. MORE IMPORTANTLY IF THEY KNOW WHATS GOING TO HAPPEN WHY DO THEY NEED TO DO THE EXPERIMENT
written by Alex Hodson, April 06, 2008
Who knows, getting sucked into a black hole could be the best thing that ever happened to us.
written by S., April 07, 2008
Thank you for your opinion. It is very rare when you meet ppl who understand that human beings are the main reason for current problems. I think that the clue lies in our way of life which is all based on the idea of consumption. We often produce, sell and buy stuff which we actually do not need. We dig Earth, extract resources, waste energy, dam-age environment and pollute/ We even waste our own health and our lives on things which do not actually give people anything but make them more hungry for new stuff. The world economy is growing; it means that more and more people get into this consumption race. Each year we need more to satisfy our needs. That is why consumption of energy is grow-ing - to satisfy our consumption habits. Just a small fact. Average US citizen spends 700 kWh of electricity each month. Average citizen in a less economically developed country say in Eastern Europe consumes 350 kWh. Even though the citizen from East Europe consumes energy far less efficient than a guy in the US, the figure is still significantly less compared to the US. So maybe we should critically look at our way of life first than try to find solutions that would on one hand fight with energy problems, but on the other hand would justify our passions for endless consumption? We talk about products recycling, but we do not talk about using things for longer period. If u look at our business you will see that business even forces people to buy more, to buy often, to change their stuff as often as they can. That means that business or I would say decision makers are not interested in protecting environment. It is just a good marketing tool or tool that helps them distract us from things which are really necessary for ppl. For these people money are more important than Earth.
Unfortunately for us, we do not think about any alternative for the current way of life. We got used to it. Any alternative ideas we consider as harmful cause any limitation to consumption habits means restriction to some pleasures and comfort and keep on killing our future. In this respect all discussions about technical solutions for global warming are just rending the air. written by S., April 07, 2008
guy in the US, the figure is still significantly less compared to the US. So maybe we should critically look at our way of life first than try to find solutions that would on one hand fight with energy problems, but on the other hand would justify our passions for endless consumption? We talk about products recycling, but we do not talk about using things for longer period. If u look at our business you will see that business even forces people to buy more, to buy often, to change their stuff as often as they can. That means that business or I would say decision makers are not interested in protecting environment. It is just a good marketing tool or tool that helps them distract us from things which are really necessary for ppl. For these people money are more important than Earth.
Unfortunately for us, we do not think about any alternative for the current way of life. We got used to it. Any alternative ideas we consider as harmful cause any limitation to consumption habits means restriction to some pleasures and comfort and keep on killing our future. In this respect all discussions about technical solutions for global warming are just rending the air. written by S., April 07, 2008
restriction to some pleasures and comfort and keep on killing our future. In this respect all discussions about technical solutions for global warming are just rending the air.
written by centripledyne, April 07, 2008
blackmediumlabcoat 16 dollars
accelerator 8 billion dollars 2lbs of depleted uranium 150 dollars look on their faces when they create a black hole priceless written by somebody else, April 09, 2008
Far from being a scientist, I just want to throw in a simple question:
-Who in their right state of mind would spend 8 billion dollars (and I assume they are Euros) just to find out what happened gazillions of years ago without a quick payback in sight???!!! There are nations not willing to spend a dime on Tesla's ideas which would have ended the energy crisis and heal the Planet from their thirst of fossil fuels A CENTURY AGO!!! And, if I just started...what really is the hidden agenda behind this experiment??? Have a great Big Bang Day! bluemedium written by Science Nerd, April 10, 2008
I was listening to an Astronomy Cast episode that talked about this collider recently and the addressed the issue of end of the universe theorist.
At most, they written by a guest, April 13, 2008
The don't know. That's why they will do experiments. It is in human nature to be curious. It is also to be afraid of new stuff. I guess you are one of the latter.
written by Jim Baxter, April 14, 2008
I take an opposite view. I believe in a Physics without time but based on electro-magnetic-spin patterns. In such a physics all that is required is that the "machine" we live in be self-consistent. In other words somewhere some "time" within it, probably round about now, we will build a machine that will create this multiverse. It will bootstrap into existence. Let's face it whether you believe in physics or God someone had to creeate it and it might as well be us, ..... and what sort of God wouldn't let his or her creations take part in their own creation? Put the keywords Shell Boffin Sinclair into Google and choose the top one, "Crackpot or Genius? Has Shell boffin stumbled onto a scientific breakthrough?" Well the jadeo Christian tradition promises us we will all be Gods so for once why not have a little bit of faith in concepts and not our blind prejudices.
written by Stuart R Black, April 14, 2008
Of more importance is how the hell can we afford $8 Billion dollars and a large environmental impact of lots of junk buried under the ground, to prove or disprove theories which, last time I checked, the majority of which were not proved or dis-proved but just possible. The court case is more about Mr Wagners need for publicity, I would like to ask if this experiment proves almost worthless, who is too blame? and who has paid for it? and who is going to recycle the $8 billion pounds of junk. Maybe a black hole is the best long shot they can hope for.
written by Emre Kaya, April 18, 2008
As an electornics enginner :
1. 8 billion is more than enought to end the food crisis =D 2. Mon someone spent 8 billion. And the construction team didnt build this for charity. Someone earned money from this. And a big ammount. 3. In a capitalist world there is no INVENTION for humanity only for money. written by Alex Ristoski, April 30, 2008
I am a current year 10 student at San Clemente High School, with future dreams of becoming a physicist.
As human beings we are fully aware of the consequences of this experiment. On one side we have the fate and total extinction of life as we know it, and on the other side we are testing a theory upon a theory. These scientists want to recreate the final seconds after the "Big Bang", which is stated as a theory. Why Risk! Is 8 billion dollars the price of total annihilation these days. And if we are correct, well good, we just found the "God Particle" of all creation in the universe for a fraction of a second. Will our actions bring us to our destruction (2012)or taking that first step towards finding the answer? The question is "Will we come to our senses of the negatives of this abomination?" written by yay, May 27, 2008
hey, nuclear power was meant to be safe, then some idiots got over-confident and didnt follow safety regulations, therefore blowing Chernobyl up. If the same thing happens here, it wont be a small region ,it will be an entire planet that will blow up.
Lets just hope the physicists got their math right...and don't get overconfident. written by Just a sign on the road (what\, June 03, 2008
You
wish my friend! Deep down wish. But it's not going to happen. Do worry! Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. In due time (not very very long), everything will be made clear, and then "soar..." you'll know Who's... Real... and you'll have "real" reasons to be "soar"!! Not funny at all! His love is still there for you! Christ's sacrifice can still save you. The door is still open, but closing. Find out about Jesus Christ in some Protestant Evangellical church. Go and ask questions, doubt, but search! Don't just stand around with your head in the ground. For your sake, please hurry. Bye! God bless you!!! written by George, June 29, 2008
Look. I'd be really pissed off if their experiment destroys the universe!
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written by michael, August 19, 2008
Please read the following article about lake geneva over the LHC, also by Nostradamus
it frightening me... http://www.nostradamia.org/2bMortTerreurAffliction/Article/GenevaOnFire.php i think that something its going to be wrong with thw LHC , may be the formula to stop the Mini black holes, stragelets and monopoles after loosing control of the experiment is to blown out the entire lake with a nuclear explosion sending missiles to the lake geneva after the experiment is aout of control. written by marn, September 09, 2008
All this media hype about the end of the world is total b*****ks and once again the media don't think of the consequences of their actions. How many kids (or other vulnerable people) are scared s**tless right now - well, I know of one that I have had to hear in tears and who is clinging to her family afraid that they are all going to die tomorrow and no amount of logic is helping! Because it was on the telly and on the internet!! Cern should just get on an test it and then the media can move onto something else. Personally, hope they know what they are doing and all that money brings about some useful knowledge!
written by sujee, September 11, 2008
You are 100% correct . Where has these human rights activist gone these days? Have they gone for holidays in heaven? Poor public are accepting what ever is done to them.
written by a guest, September 11, 2008
You are 100% correct . Where has these human rights activist gone these days? Have they gone for holidays in heaven? Poor public are accepting what ever is done to them.[/quote]
written by dr.strangelove, September 12, 2008
they want to create the end of the world because the bible says it so are they good christians bad muslims or just mad scientists?
written by Bob, September 26, 2008
Frankly if their is a chance of doing as much damage as some of you all predict then in all honestly nobody has the right to make a decesion like that for the rest of the world, it simply goes agains human rights. i dont care if the chances are small, who gives you the right to decide my fate? I heard a interview from one of the scientist from cern and well you could just hear it in his voice he wants the black hole to be created. Even if it destroys the earth, he commented well if that happends then i guess we well all get to witness upclose what a blackhole is. Frankly thats just wrong, they dont care either way. Frankly i think it should be stopped and reviewed, hell look at all the problems they have had already and they really have not even fired the thing at full power.
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